Elliot Crossan interviews Justine Sachs
Justine Sachs is a socialist activist who has been involved in left-wing activism for over a decade. She is a trade unionist, currently working for the New Zealand Nurses Organisation (NZNO) as an organiser, and a leading pro-Palestine voice in the Auckland Jewish community, being one of the co-founders of the organisation Dayenu: New Zealand Jews Against the Occupation. Justine recently went public with the fact that she has joined the Labour Party — and believes other socialists should join, too.
Elliot Crossan is the Chair of System Change Aotearoa. Elliot recently published an essay arguing that a left-wing leadership of the New Zealand Labour Party is very unlikely to happen. However, System Change was created by ecosocialists who seek to transform Aotearoa, and therefore we must ask ourselves which political party, if any, we should support. The question of the Labour Party, and whether or not it is a party capable of delivering real change for the working class, cannot be ignored.
So Elliot caught up with Justine via Zoom to discuss Labour, the alternatives to Labour, and the relationship between Labour and the trade unions. Justine argued the case for socialists to contest spaces and engage in mass politics if we want to change the world.
How would you describe the current state of the Labour Party in 2024?
I think that the Labour Party, like many social democratic parties and centre-left parties across the west, is in a state of crisis. I’d describe it as an identity crisis. Following the defeat of organised labour in the 1970s, these parties have struggled to manage what their base should be. We are living in an era where the chickens are coming home to roost from that historical process.
We no longer have that organised labour constituency that the historic parties of social democracy relied on to be their base. A lot of things have come out of that, such as Blairism, and other attempts to equivocate and try to expand the base of social democracy beyond the traditional working class. But we are also seeing the limitations of that. There is an institutional decline in vote share for the centre-left.
The socialist movement in Aotearoa has had a fraught history with the Labour Party, particularly since 1984, when the Fourth Labour Government abandoned its principles and implemented radical free market reforms which increased inequality and devastated the party’s working class base. Labour governments since then have pursued the ‘Third Way’ approach of accepting neoliberalism, but with mild tweaks to mitigate its worst effects. Many on the radical left would be baffled by the idea of joining the Labour Party, but you disagree. Why do you believe socialists in 2024 should join Labour?
The fact that the left doesn’t think that they have to contest political spaces and organise the people that they don’t necessarily agree with is a problem. It’s why the left is in the position it’s in. It’s a self-marginalising position which puts the left on the fringes of society.
So, I suppose I disagree with the entire premise that we shouldn’t be contesting spaces, that the left shouldn’t be involving itself in mass politics. But to be honest, I also think we need to change the way we frame these things. I am someone who seeks to build a working class politics. I think that is actually quite different from how a lot of people on the left understand and relate to politics.
Regardless of what critiques people may or may not have of Labour, the fact is that Labour remains a party whose base is the working class of Aotearoa. That is a meaningful and important thing. For those of us committed to building working class politics in Aotearoa, politics which can meaningfully give working people agency and self-determination, I don’t think that Labour is a space where we can just say, “oh well we disagree, you know, so therefore we will not engage.” I just think we have to come away from that whole idea of doing politics, because I don’t think it has delivered for us.
The Ardern-Hipkins government failed to implement either a wealth tax or a capital gains tax, despite releasing reports in 2019 and 2023 showing the urgent need to make the rich in Aotearoa pay their fair share. You are part of the Win the Wealth Tax group, which is campaigning within the party to make Labour commit to taxing wealth. Tell me more about this — do you think there’s support within the party for the next Labour government to deliver progressive tax reform?
I think working people see the need for tax reform. I think that working people understand that the tax system is stacked against them. I think that David Parker’s excellent work to kind of illuminate that the ultra-wealthy only pay 9% of tax, while someone who gets their income from working is paying 29% on average, shows how starkly unfair our tax system is. So I think there’s absolutely an appetite for some form of a tax on capital and wealth.
I believe that the wealth tax is a far stronger policy [than the capital gains tax]. It’s bolder, it’s easier to talk to people about, because it really does target the ultra-rich. It invites a question about class as well, and it is more difficult for the right to scaremonger that this is gonna impact ordinary working people, because it will affect people who earn over five million dollars, and couples who are worth over ten million, excluding the family home. It raises revenue faster, and that revenue can immediately be put into our ailing public services. So, in terms of telling the public a story about the unfairness of our current system, I think a wealth tax is a really powerful policy, and strategy to take into the next election.
I do think Labour realises it has to enact some kind of reform of the tax system. I think it is fair to say that ruling out a wealth or capital gains tax was a mistake for the Ardern government, a huge mistake. We really shouldn’t underplay the ramifications of that, in terms of not being able to fund our public services…
So yeah, I think working people and the broader left should be absolutely unanimous in our calls for some form of tax on wealth and capital. I am arguing for a wealth tax for the reasons I’ve mentioned. But obviously I also support a capital gains tax. You could say why not both, but then obviously my position might not be that popular.
MMP allows for a diverse range of parties to be represented in our political system. In the last election, Labour — having run an uninspiring centrist campaign — received the second-worst result in the party’s history, after an unprecedented collapse in vote share. This benefitted the Greens and Te Pāti Māori, both of whom campaigned on more left-wing policies than Labour did. This meant a record number of MPs elected to the left of Labour. Current polling suggests the two parties might do even better next time.
Why not join the Greens and support TPM, and try and strengthen the left-wing alternative to Labour whilst the party is weak?
Firstly, regarding Te Pāti Māori, I think we have a responsibility in the Kawanatanga sphere to sort our own affairs. There is an obligation there that rests with us. As Max Harris would say, that responsibility runs through the state, and through organising and building for a progressive government that uses the state to improve the lot of all people in Aotearoa, in all our diversity. So I think it is appropriate for us to engage with Labour and the Greens in that sense.
Labour still has those relationships with the organised working class, as well as working class people, whether we like it or not. Yes, there is the historic decline that we’ve touched on, but that connection is still there. The Greens voting base is traditionally students and urban liberals. It is a much smaller base. I think we have excellent leaders and comrades in the Green party. I will always want to work with them and we share key values. I hope I am not persona non-grata. This is not about dissing the Greens at all.
Labour still has that mass base, and that base is important; therefore, as a trade unionist, the Labour Party still remains my political home. I find it hard to accept the idea that we should concede that space, and not engage in that space, when so many workers are still in that space, yeah? I think I should also admit as a trade unionist and a socialist, I do feel at home in the Labour Party and with Labour’s base. Ultimately, a (small l) labour party is my political home.
I am respectful of whatever position people take, and where they wanna put that work, and I think that many of us share the same vision, is what I’d say. Let a thousand blossoms bloom.
Most major trade unions are not affiliated to the Labour Party, despite the fact that Labour was founded by the union movement. Many on the left would argue that Labour no longer deserves its claim to be the party of workers and unions.
What would you say to those who worry that left-wing trade unionists joining Labour and trying to strengthen the links between the party and the workers’ movement will give Labour unearned legitimacy and credibility? Could this undermine the efforts of those who want the unions to break away from Labour in order to better fight for the interests of workers?
I am yet to see an argument that actually comprehensively answers my question on how the workers’ movement will be better if they broke away completely from Labour. I think that the left actually needs to try and answer that question. Because we haven’t built the power to challenge our dominant economic structure, we haven’t built the power to challenge the power of capital. So it’s not about who deserves what, it’s about how we’re gonna do that.
I mean, how can we even compare Labour to the Greens? How can you compare a party that can get 50% of the vote to a party where — the Greens’ base is around 15%, 12-15%? And I’m not saying that can’t change. But I don’t think it’s a matter of deserves or not; this is a reality that we’re working with, and it is different. It’s a completely different way of seeing politics.
I think socialists need to return to mass politics, I think that needs to be our orientation! I think that’s a different way of seeing things. And I do want to caution socialists away from talking about politics in these moralistic terms, with words like “deserves”, and, you know, we have this sense of betrayal. Whether that’s justified or not, it doesn’t matter. It’s about power, and who has it — and we need to build it. So, for me, as I said, the Labour Party is still, in terms of its base, the party of working New Zealanders. And either that matters or not to us, as socialists — and I think it matters a hell of a lot.
We have seen recent attempts overseas to move mainstream centre-left parties away from neoliberal policies and towards bold, transformational politics which aims to tackle the twin crises of climate change and inequality by taking on the wealth and power of the top 1%. Do you believe it is possible for the Labour Party as a whole to become a party fighting for transformational change? If so, how?
I believe that the answers to our issues lie in mass politics — democratic mass politics — where working people are engaged in politics and contest these spaces, and make their voices heard. I believe that the Labour Party is the vehicle to do this. I do think that it is possible for things to get better — I don’t think I’d be able to be a union organiser if I didn’t.
Look at Bernie Sanders, and look at Jeremy Corbyn, and look what they achieved compared to Ralph Nader, compared to Jill Stein, compared to our attempts to — I think — find a shortcut away from the struggle. Bernie Sanders has been able to reach millions and millions of Americans. Jeremy Corbyn got so close to being the Prime Minister of the UK. In their failure there is a success as well, and it should be an inspiration to us all. So yes, I do believe it is possible.
The Labour Party needs to return to good old-fashioned working class politics. It needs to build class politics. It needs to work hand-in-glove with the union movement, to rebuild the working class as its base. I know that to some people in the party, that’s a terribly old-fashioned view. But the truth is, it’s actually very current, because, as a result of neoliberalism, we live in a new Gilded Age. The material dynamics have moved. And that’s the reality, okay? So, either these parties are going to respond to that and rebuild themselves, or they are going to really struggle, and continue declining. I don’t think that that would be a positive outcome for working people. I think that would result in the further fragmentation of our political power.
It comes back to the MMP question, because Corbyn and Sanders both exist within first-past-the-post systems. If you look at countries that don’t have that model, such as France, Ireland, Germany, Mexico, the left has emerged by starting separate parties, and we do have MMP here.
Sure, MMP is better for democracy, it means we are not trapped with only two parties. But even in MMP systems there still tends to be a party of labour and a party of capital fighting for the masses support. So I don’t think MMP means there are any short-cuts. In New Zealand, every single attempt to build a new party of labour has failed and been short lived. Alliance, New Labour, Mana etc. How do we account for this? I don’t see the left grappling with those big questions or failures. Personally, I think it shows the continued salience and importance of the New Zealand Labour Party.
Finally, what is your elevator pitch to a young activist who wants to help change the world, but is skeptical of the Labour Party because of its history and its uninspiring track record in recent years? Why should they join?
If they care about building working class politics in Aotearoa, they should join the Labour Party. If they’re prepared to engage in democratic contestation, and to not believe that being right means anything. I don’t care about being right! The left has been right for forty years, and it’s a fat lot of help that’s done us. What have we achieved by being correct? We’ve had a great critique of neoliberalism for forty years, awesome work guys! Me included. What have we done with that, you know?
I don’t wanna just be right! I don’t! There’s a world still fucking burning, and actually it’s doing me psychic damage, being correct without having any power to change anything. It’s psychically damaging, and I can’t stand it and neither can you I bet.
